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 Line X on Deck? - Call us "Crazy"
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waterbaby
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Initially Posted - 03/31/2021 :  13:50:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We don't have any soft spots but we've lost a significant amount of gel coat from the deck and it's time to do something about it. While we know the conventional fix for this is to either paint the deck or apply more gelcoat, hubby is really intrigued by Line X.

He's planning on driving the boat to the Sarasota, FL Line X dealer and having Line X applied to the entire deck, cabin top, bottom, keel, and interior floor.

I understand that it's a very durable substance. What are your thoughts?


1986 TR/SK #5250 Sunshine

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 03/31/2021 :  16:51:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Think resale first. Would someone want to buy your boat after applying Line X? how much weight will it add to the hull? what colors are available?
Maybe try it on something else first, like an old dinghy, dock cart, or wheelbarrow and see how it "fits".

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/31/2021 :  17:27:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A quick search says LineX is a pickup truck spray-on bed liner.

Some paints and fiberglass compounds are made for automobiles, and some are made for marine use. Some are made for topsides and some are made for underwater.

A fiberglass expert who had been in the business since it's inception told me that water is one of the most intrusive substances known. In time, it can destroy steel and etch glass. A substance that can shed rainwater might not be able to withstand being underwater for months or years.

I wouldn't use it on the bottom or keel because I don't know how well it will adhere to fiberglass in that environment, or how well antifouling paints will adhere to it. Moreover, most spray-on bed liners appear to have a rough surface - far rougher than smooth gel coat. Rough underwater surface will create turbulence as the boat moves through the water. If the goal is to seal the bottom and keel, there are paints designed to seal the bottom and keel, and we know from experience that they'll work. If LineX doesn't adhere, then you'll have to figure out how to remove it before you can apply something else.

The same reasoning applies to using it elsewhere on the boat. There are paints designed to restore the non-skid (KiwiGrip) and paints to cover old gel coat.

LineX might work, but I'd use materials designed for the purpose.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/31/2021 17:29:31
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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 03/31/2021 :  18:12:35  Show Profile  Visit Leon Sisson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I would repair or replace damaged or worn gelcoat with new gelcoat.  There are good reasons why gelcoat is the overwhelming choice for surface finish on mass produced boats.  Every painted boat I've owned has further convinced me gelcoat is superior.
 
About the only area where I've replaced gelcoat with something else has been below the waterline, where I use WEST epoxy based barrier coat to repair and discourage blisters.
 
I recently compounded and polished the topsides of my Catalina 25.  The 40+ year old gelcoat now looks great.  I recently acquired a 60 year old fiberglass runabout in neglected condition.  I plan to rub out its original gelcoat, rather than paint over it.
 
Not to sound like a grumpy old curmudgeon who's blind to innovation, but I haven't seen any pickup trucks running around with 40 year old spray-on bed liner, whether they looked good or not.
 
Can you tell the subject of paint over gelcoat gets me up on my soapbox?
 

— Leon Sisson
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waterbaby
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Response Posted - 03/31/2021 :  20:46:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you all for your thoughts, I've got all the same concerns, especially for any bottom surfaces. Hubby has been really convinced about it though. I do know that LineX sells a marine product so it's not the same as the tailgate covering we have on our truck. We have seen it applied to the topsides of some new smaller power boats at a few of our local boat shows. It seems to be fairly smooth and hard. This is where hubby got the idea in the first place. The shop in Sarasota FL, is the only one that we've found that applies the marine version. We've asked for their recommendation and cost estimate.

Our original thought was to replace the gel coat but a recent inquiry at a local boatyard paint shop was very discouraging. We were told that a new gel coat application wouldn't aquire much shine and that paint was recommended. The paint quote was $350 per boat foot, which seemed pretty excesive for just a topside paint job.

1986 TR/SK #5250 Sunshine
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/01/2021 :  05:49:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If LineX has a marine version, it's certainly worth considering, but I've seen some marine products that didn't work as promised, so you should proceed with caution. I searched Sailnet's website and this link is the only thread I found on LineX. It isn't much, but one guy likes it FWIW. https://www.sailnet.com/search/84878/?q=LineX&o=relevance

As between paint and gel coat, paint can be applied by a do-it-yourselfer. Most people don't have the equipment or know-how to spray on gel coat. Modern boat paints can be applied with a roller and have a nice gloss. Twenty years ago, a friend's boat was painted with a dark blue hull and white decks. Dark colors hold up better than light colors. The decks were repainted a couple times. From 20 feet away, the boat still looks good. After 20 years, gel coat wouldn't look much better.

When refinishing decks, you have two primary concerns - aesthetics and non-skid. The original non-skid is molded into the fiberglass. If it wears away, the deck becomes slippery. If the little depressions get filled with paint, it becomes slippery. In either case, painting it or applying LineX probably won't restore the non-skid quality. That's what KiwiGrip does well. Spraying non-skid areas with gel coat would not restore the non-skid.

Painting a boat isn't a perfect solution, but neither is gel coat, and, I suspect, neither is LineX. Each has positive and negative qualities. When you consider the cost and labor involved in restoring a boat, maybe the better course would be to sell the present boat and buy one that's still in good condition, and that has better, newer equipment. There are lots of nice older boats out there that can be bought for less than $350. a foot.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 04/01/2021 :  09:18:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have he same issue with the non-skid especially at the bow and am sticking to proven marine products. Most likely will use paint but may try KiwiGrip. If your concern is the topsides, before spending so much on paint I would have the boat professionally polished. You might be surprised at how good it turns out when someone who knows power buffers and proper polish applies their magic! If that does not work then look at having a car body shop apply Awlgrip -- it may save you some money and will be a marine product.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/01/2021 :  10:59:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A DIYer can paint Awlgrip by the "roll and tip" method, without spraying it. There are lots of videos showing how. Here's one. https://youtu.be/JLJOXD9fiBs You don't have to do all the procedures he shows. You can stop compounding and buffing whenever the result is to your satisfaction.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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islander
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Response Posted - 04/01/2021 :  11:27:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You really have to take into consideration on just how many $$$ you are willing to put into what is essentially the cosmetics of a 35yr old boat. It would be well worth it if you are supplying the labor and paint it yourselves but to have professionals do the job could cost you more than its worth.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
8652 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2021 :  12:51:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The videos I've seen so far all show a grainy surface that would be appropriate on non-skid areas but would look very strange on cabin-sides, bulkheads, and especially the topsides of the hull. Below the waterline, that surface likely will slow the boat somewhat. I'm not clear on the intended surfaces, but shooting anything other than the non-skid would be a huge roll of the dice, with a serious possibility you'll never, and I mean never be able to sell the boat. It's the kind of coating you'd put in your pickup bed and on a ladder rack, but would you paint the whole truck (or a car) with it?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-USCG-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/01/2021 12:58:52
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glivs
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Response Posted - 04/01/2021 :  16:28:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't go down the Line X path just because it would be quick and easy. There are many factors to consider as has been already noted. I see there is a marine version advertised that has been used in crew showers on cruise ships but have found no pics or descriptions online. Also the base color pallet appears to be a bit wild although the description leaves an impression that there may be a wide range of colors to select from.

The comments above are good ones...and your decision is not easy. Here's a recent review of Kiwigrip that might be of value. It is easy to apply, requiring only a special roller, but the decks I've seen with Kiwigrip are not pretty. Awlgrip is a polyurethane to which you add material to achieve a non-skid surface to your liking. Most reviews seem favorable but there are newer materials on the market you may want also to consider, e.g. Alexseal with Softsand non-skid particles. FYI Andy from Boatworks is a fiberglass/gelcoat repair magician.

If you choose to go the DYI route, yes it will be work but you don't need to tackle the entire boat in one season. Choose an area, get some experience and see how your effort looks and performs. Set an achievable goal and sail when you can. Good luck.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Edited by - glivs on 04/01/2021 16:30:43
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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/01/2021 :  17:32:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you unrealistically expect that the boat's deck will be as perfect as when it was new, there is no product currently available that will please you.

A friend used a non-skid paint that had finely ground rubber particles mixed in it. I'd guess the rubber came from ground up old tires. It gave good traction, but the paint quickly eroded away leaving bits of the black rubber exposed, making the deck look dirty.

The problem with mixing sand or other grit into paint is that the grit is a different color than the paint. The sharp-edged grit cuts through the softer paint and the paint erodes away, leaving the grit exposed.

To avoid that result, the paint must be a uniform color and consistency throughout. What makes Kiwigrip different from previous concoctions is that nothing is mixed into it to provide grip. The special roller that is used to apply the paint forms little peaks all over the surface that remain there after the paint dries. Those peaks are what make the non-skid quality. The paint's color is uniform all throughout.

Kiwigrip won't make your boat look like new, but, if your gelcoat is looking bad and your non-skid is becoming unsafe, it will make it look much better and be safer to work on the foredeck.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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waterbaby
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Response Posted - 04/02/2021 :  07:17:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really appreciate everyone's thoughtfulness and input. Just to clarify, the non-skid areas are not the biggest issue, actually the areas that have non-skid paint are the best preserved parts of the topside coating and look like a coat of whatever was put there originally would be sufficient. The problem is that there are large areas of the top where fiberglass is coming through and we need to rectify it fast. It doesn't necessarily look all that bad visually, there are a few small areas where you can see a greyish paint which is likely some sort of primer but I get fiberglass in my hands every time I get on the boat.

If we paint it, we will have to do it ourselves, as you said, the cost is prohibitive to pay someone to do it.

We could just clean it and paint it but what about all the spider cracks? Just thinking about trying to scrape them out and filling them all is overwhelming. Then there are all the raised patterned areas on on the cockpit benches, combings and cabin top. Should we sand that down to get a clean surface to paint? All the videos I've seen show a smooth surface being prepped for paint.

1986 TR/SK #5250 Sunshine
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
8652 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2021 :  15:35:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can we see some pix of the problem areas? It's not as hard as some make it sound...

1. Upload a photo to a photo site like Shutterfly.
2. Right-click it and Copy its address (URL) to the clipboard.
3. In your post, with the cursor where you want the picture, click the button in the toolbar.
4. Paste the address between the [ img ] and the [ /img ] that appears.

Done. It usually helps us understand a problem.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-USCG-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/02/2021 15:37:53
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Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/02/2021 :  17:03:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just to add to Dave Stinkpotter’s excellent advice, sometimes your photo sharing app will give you several options for the link to the picture. The one you want has a URL for the photo that’s of the form:
https:// www.yourphotosharingapp.com/pathname/alongstringofcharactersandnumbers.jpg

The key characteristics include the domain and path, plus the literal file name or hash code related to the photo, plus the file type .jpg at the end.

This object has to sit in between the [ img ] - - - - [ /img ] escape codes as Dave pointed out.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 04/02/2021 17:21:43
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waterbaby
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Response Posted - 04/02/2021 :  17:57:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't have any good close up detail pictures of the areas. We took the boat back to storage for now but we did take some wider angle photos last week and I've cropped a few sections out to try to give you an idea. It's a bit embarrassing showing these to you. The boat's been in storage for the last three years, and pretty neglected. Please don't judge us too harshly, life just got in the way for awhile. We're just getting her back into shape.

We started to clean up the deck but didn't have time to finish it which actually is helpful since the dirt really adheres to the nonskid areas and you can see the pattern that I'm concerned about in the dirt.

So here we go.

The first photo is one of the benches, it looks grey but its just shadows and it's white gelcoat. It's dirty so you can see the pattern of the surface here and there. These benches is where I think we're getting fiberglass in our hands but I'm not sure exactly. Also there is a hairline crack all along the bottom of both benches in the sole of the cockpit.
"https://www.flickr.com/photos/192673652@N03/51091903892/in/dateposted-public/"

This next one is really the same side but not as shadowed with more dirt and shows the pattern on the seats, the crack along the sole and various gouges and nicks. We have replacement teak for the companionway but never figured out how to get the old teak off. Another topic for later...
Here's the pic. "https://www.flickr.com/photos/192673652@N03/shares/2KWt31"

This last one is maybe harder to see but I'm trying to show you the nonskid paint areas on the foredeck. It seems that some PO overpainted nonskid and then covered it with gelcoat. Now the gelcoat has worn away and you can see the layer of beige paint beneath it. The cabin and pop top are mostly just really dirty. I didn't have a picture that included the area on the cabin top where the primer is showing through which is too bad. If you look closely, you can see where some holes in the nonskid on the top have been poorly patched. Here's the pic. "https://www.flickr.com/photos/192673652@N03/51092613270/in/dateposted-public/"

I don't have any pictures of the spider cracks but they are pretty much all over the boat, like they are on most old boats like this.

We plan on getting back to work on her next week so I can get better pictures then.

1986 TR/SK #5250 Sunshine

Edited by - waterbaby on 04/03/2021 06:59:15
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waterbaby
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Response Posted - 04/03/2021 :  07:03:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've tried posting with shutterfly and with flickr. Neither site provides the .jpg extension which Bruce indicates is critical to posting the photo. Sorry to have to put in the url and redirect you but I couldn't figure out how to get a URL with the correct attributes for img to work.

1986 TR/SK #5250 Sunshine
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/03/2021 :  07:56:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ya, the photo sites have been getting more and more "possessive" and less "sharing"... Anything's better than nothing.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-USCG-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/03/2021 07:58:42
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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 04/03/2021 :  10:22:40  Show Profile  Visit Leon Sisson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I notice a couple things in this sentence:

Re:  Just to clarify, the non-skid areas are not the biggest issue, actually the areas that have non-skid paint are the best preserved parts of the topside coating and look like a coat of whatever was put there originally would be sufficient.

If you're referring to the original nonslip finish on the deck of a Catalina 25, I think they used pattern molded gelcoat for nonskid, not paint.  Also, the way you worded it seems to imply there's nonskid on the topsides, which makes me wonder if you're talking about the horizontal deck surfaces.  'Topsides' generally means the more or less vertical smooth exterior of the boat between the deck and the waterline.
 
I don't mean to be pedantic about your terminology, just want to be sure we're talking about the same surface.  The part of a boat referred to as "ceiling" can also be confusing.
 
Regarding sharing photos here, if one were to start to post a message with pics on TrailerSailor, and got as far as uploading the images and capturing the links to them for use in illustrating the posting, then abandoned the message unposted, those photos would remain on their server, and links to them would still be valid...
 
Re:  "We have replacement teak for the companionway but never figured out how to get the old teak off. "
 
I think first removing the teak trim either side of the companionway inside the cabin exposes screws holding the exterior teak on.  As for that thick piece of teak across the bottom of the companionway opening, I'm sanding and refinishing that right where it is.
 

— Leon Sisson
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waterbaby
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Response Posted - 04/03/2021 :  14:27:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, please correct me anytime I'm not finding the right words. I was trying to figure out how to say it correctly, and now you've given me the right words.

I guess the PO must have painted some areas of the boat then with a non-skid paint that seems to be in pretty good shape (12+ years at least). The problem areas are those where the gelcoat was molded (not topsides ), definitely horizontal. We're not sure how to paint that, or perhaps it's better to say, how to sand it down for the paint to adhere. Then assuming we manage that, how to keep from filling that pattern in.

1986 TR/SK #5250 Sunshine
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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 04/03/2021 :  14:28:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FWIW -- If you are near a boat yard/repair facility I would ask their opinion as to first, what needs to be done, and second what could be done to improve the situation. Your deck does not look, at least to me, to be at a point requiring immediate attention. If you are not near a boat yard, take detailed pictures, and contact a boat yard as near to you as possible, share the pics and ask their opinion as if you might bring the boat to them for work. With boats the ages of ours take a big breath, enjoy the moment and gain as much information as possible THEn decide course of action! -- Again, just one person's 2 cents worth.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/03/2021 :  18:02:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just so happens, you’re in luck! Andy from Boatworks Today just showed up in my YouTube feed with a video all about painting your boat. I wonder whether he’s tuning in here, so timely.

The video is a primer (pun not intended) on all the steps you need to know about painting, sanding, prepping, faring, rollers and brushes, types of paints and even how to use plastic edge tape versus plain old masking tape.

It’s totally chock full of information and “how to” goodies for people of every skill level.
It’s definitely worth watching.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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waterbaby
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Response Posted - 04/07/2021 :  04:28:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To follow-up. After considering all your comments and watching lots of video's. (Thanks Bruce!) We have decided to paint. We'll use Kiwigrip as recommended (Thanks Steve!) on the non-skid areas including those which currently are molding into the gelcoat. We'll use Alexseal on the remaining smooth surfaces. It appears that these products are friendly enough for novice boat painters like us to get a reasonable finish and they are not as hazardous to work with as something like Awlgrip. I found a discussion board where a pro recommended scrubbing the gelcoat embedded non-skid with a stainless steel wire brush to prep it for paint adherence. Wish us luck on this project!

We spent most of yesterday removing hardware. Crawling around the interior to hold the nuts with a wrench, we were reminded how tight this little boat is in some places. We got stumped on removing the traveler bar, the port stern cleat and the starboard t-track (can't even see the nuts along the interior). Oddly, the port side t-track nuts are visible just not the starboard. There's a piece of trim along the interior deck joint area which we plan to remove to see if the t-track nuts are underneath. Do you have any advice on how to access the interior nuts to remove any of these parts?

It's a little different walking forward of the cockpit with no lifelines or stanchions not to mention climbing up and down a ladder with nothing on the boat to hold onto.

1986 TR/SK #5250 Sunshine
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/07/2021 :  07:23:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just discovered another product you might want to consider. It's called Alexseal. It was developed by the person who developed Awlgrip. He reportedly had an agreement to not compete with Awlgrip for a period of years, and, after that agreement expired, he came out with an improved product. It is applied with a roller, but tipping isn't necessary. Also, if it gets scratched, it's supposedly much easier to make the repair match. I have no personal experience with it, but it sounds like a considerable improvement over Awlgrip and considerably
easier for a DIYer. Here's a link to an opinion of a person (Minnewaska) who has used it. https://www.sailnet.com/threads/does-anyone-have-a-boat-near-maryland-painted-awlgrip-petrol-blue.337346/#post-2051710456

Here's a link to a demonstration of its application. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFLsOR9riM0

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 04/07/2021 :  17:30:30  Show Profile  Visit Leon Sisson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
While you have all those things mounted to the deck removed, this would be an ideal time to protect the plywood deck core from rot damage resulting from future leaks.  You can search here for the details of using cast-in-place epoxy sleeves around each hole.  Doing all the holes at once is only a little more work than doing a few for one item, and a lot less work than repairing rotted deck core.
 

— Leon Sisson
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