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 Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums
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 Advise needed: problems attaching furler to bow
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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
190 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/27/2019 :  15:17:32  Show Profile  Send Chief RA a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
After slacking stern stay and loosening all 4 side stays my C250 1998 will not provide enough forward slack to pin the base of furler turret to it's bow eye. Help! Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

JB
1st Mate

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69 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  07:14:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is the boom still on and are the vang and sheets loose? Can you get a friend to push mast forward or tug down on the fore-stay? How about if you attach the jib halyard to the pulpit and put some tension on it?

Edited by - JB on 06/28/2019 07:15:40
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3634 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  07:33:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Haven't forgotten any toggles? Loosen the turnbuckles enough?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
190 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  08:00:13  Show Profile  Send Chief RA a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
JB, no boom on mast,friend layed his weight on, attached jib halyard and drew down hard, all turnbuckles extended. Maybe release one of the stern stays, attach furler, attempt to reattach stern stay leg?

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Edited by - Chief RA on 06/28/2019 08:03:52
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
8286 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  08:20:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What led up to this? The furler was rigged before? By how much is it missing the mark now? Had you taken the mast down? Was the boat on the hard? Mostly supported by the keel? For how long? It's possible the hull has flexed a little--bow and stern down? Sounds like you need a small toggle on the back-stay. Once you have everything rigged, you might find that you need to adjust turnbuckles over time if the hull is flexing back to the way it was.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/28/2019 08:22:44
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
8286 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  08:33:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't see your rig, but it might be wise to add, or add slightly to the length of, toggles both fore and aft so you aren't changing the rake of the mast. Do you know the degree of the original rake (if any)?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/28/2019 08:35:03
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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
190 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  08:51:08  Show Profile  Send Chief RA a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Dave: Furler has never fit without extension hardware. Do not like that approach as it is just more failure possibility. Winters on trailer every year but shows same problem every year. Mast appears properly set due to mast foot correct lay and shroud lines.

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
8286 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  10:16:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you already have a toggle to extend it, you can replace that with a slightly longer one. The rake I'm referring to is fore-to-aft as controlled by the forestay (furler) and backstay. It affects your helm balance. Therefore, it's possible that you should slightly lengthen both fore and aft so the mast can remain at the same angle from vertical per the boat's specs.

I'll speculate that when the boat sits on the trailer, the support of the hull by the keel pushing up is bending the hull slightly up amidships and down fore and aft. It's often called "hogging", and is not uncommon, especially on sailboats on the hard. After a while rigged in the water, the upward pull of the fore- and back-stays plus the downward pull of the keel gradually bend it back, reducing the tension on the fore- and back-stays. Hopefully with slightly longer toggles fore and aft (?), you'll be able to hook everything up and still have enough take-up on the turnbuckles to adjust the tension as the hull regains its shape.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3634 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  11:40:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave is correct that boats bend. My old 30ft power boat would do this. The head door would open and close normally when in the water but wouldn't close when it was on the hard. A day back in the water is all it took for the boat to relax. If you keep the boat in the water for the season is it possible to raise the mast in the water? You might find that everything will fit then. If you trailer sail then you may have to rig the boat as Dave suggest with toggles so everything fits while on the trailer. This might result in a loose rig once the boat is launched.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound



Edited by - islander on 06/28/2019 11:59:07
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3634 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  12:08:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another thought is if you keep the boat in the water you could use a toggle temporarily to raise the mast on the trailer then launch the boat. After a day or two in the water and the boat has had a time to relax you could remove the toggle.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
190 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  14:16:16  Show Profile  Send Chief RA a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Boat has been in the water for a month and still has the problem. This boat shows no difference either on or off the trailer. Balancing or adjusting the mast is not an issue. I have been sailing 50+ years. Of necessity I do extend the furler, but aware that is not exactly correct. Stern turnbuckle compensates for 1" forward extension as well as the side shroud adjustments. Hull warp does not appear to be the issue. Wish you guys were right but after full season hull does not reshape.

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
8286 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2019 :  21:28:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Then you just need toggles or lightly longer ones on the fore- and back-stays, except you said the boat had the same problem every year (suggesting hogging)...

Sarge out.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/28/2019 21:28:40
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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
190 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2019 :  06:49:01  Show Profile  Send Chief RA a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Its done with toggles but wanted it exact. Thanks anyway you guys, best we could do! Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890
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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
190 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2019 :  07:32:54  Show Profile  Send Chief RA a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Boat has been in the water for a month and still has the problem. This boat shows no difference either on or off the trailer. Balancing or adjusting the mast is not an issue. I have been sailing 50+ years. Of necessity I do extend the furler, but aware that is not exactly correct. Stern turnbuckle compensates for 1" forward extension as well as the side shroud adjustments. Hull warp does not appear to be the issue. Wish you guys were right but after full season hull does not reshape.

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5326 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2019 :  08:49:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chief, the tall rig forestay should be 31' 10" long. The single backstay should be 33' 11-1/4" long. Before you add any toggles, I'd suggest you measure your forestay and backstay to see if they meet factory specs. The turnbuckles should be 5-1/4" long (old-style closed turnbuckles) or 5" long (open turnbuckles). If your forestay or backstay or turnbuckles don't meet these specs, then you might need to add a toggle to either the forestay or backstay to bring it within specs. Each turnbuckle should allow you about 3" of adjustability. Thus, you should have a total of almost 6" of adjustability in the forestay and backstay to work with. To give you plenty of slack on the forestay, you should unscrew the backstay turnbuckle a lot, but be sure you leave enough screw threads to hold the mast up securely.

You should start threading the forestay turnbuckle on at both ends at the same time, to maximize the range of adjustability. Also, it might help to have a helper pull down on the forestay, to take the slack out of it, while you start the turnbuckle.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
8286 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2019 :  17:32:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Chief, the tall rig forestay should be 31' 10" long. The single backstay should be 33' 11-1/4" long.
That’s the C25. His is the rare C250 TR. Rig specs are equally rare.

Chief: I’d talk to Catalina—this might be above our pay grades. But adding a toggle isn’t detracting from reliability. The toggle is more reliable than the swages or the wire. The issue with the addition is whether you can get the right rake by adjusting the stays.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/01/2019 17:51:25
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5326 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2019 :  18:02:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My mistake, but if you want the rig "exact" you need to know first if it meets factory specs. I haven't found the correct lengths for the 250 tall rig forestay and backstay so I suggest you ask Catalina for them, as well as the turnbuckle lengths. After measuring your stays, you should know if you need a toggle and where it needs to go.

I agree with you that it should be correct, because the boat won't perform correctly if you can't adjust the rig correctly.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore
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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
190 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2019 :  13:13:35  Show Profile  Send Chief RA a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
It seems that I need to learn how to find and adjust the foreward turnbuckle. This boat is the only one I have had with a furler! Thanks everyone! Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890
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